Today on CNN Newsroom
Yale fraternity pledges' chant about rape in initiation ritual
A Yale fraternity is under fire for a pledging ritual. It’s not what they did, but what they said. The potential pledges of Delta Kappa Epsilon’s Phi chapter marched through Yale’s campus chanting rape-trivializing phrases such as "no means yes, yes means anal." Oh… did I mention most of the first-year female students are housed in the area where the fraternity performed this stunt? Some students were offended. The Yale Women's Center Board was livid. Then the story took off when the Yale Daily News posted the video on youtube and it went viral.
So here's the thing. A forum was held. The fraternity apologized. Pledging activities were suspended and that seems to be the end of it.
We want to hear from you. Does the punishment fit the crime? Should Yale come down harder on DKE and those involved? Tell us what you think. Kyra Phillips may read some of your comments on during the 10 o’clock hour of CNN Newsroom.
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How can "educated", ivy league, "men" be allowed to just get away with this? They knew better from the get go so I dont believe the punishment fit the crime. There should be re-education for every member of that organization as well as the pledges so this does not happen again. I also suggest that the chapter pay a fine for disturbing the peace and hazing. Maybe the standards at Yale are not as high as people assumed......
The punishment does not fit the crime. A lot of schools would ban that fraternity or expel members of it. But Yale students are "above" a lot of other college students, so they just get a wrist slap. They are "too intelligent" and pay too much money to be properly punished
The punishment fits the crime, but does not restore balance or educate the young men regarding the degree of offense. Perhaps the boys involved in this stunt should sign a "No Sex for Six months" pledge while being required to cultivate friendship with six females. At the very least, the boys should be educated regarding sex, power and gender. Education– isn't that Yale's business?
Finally, the comment ". . .yes means anal. . ." makes you wonder about the sexual preference of these young men– though I'm sure that would not be their intent. Their intent was to denigrate women, thereby, cultivating an illusion of their own power.
Kyra, I share your outrage on this subject. Those boys should have to call their mothers, sisters and grandmothers and tell them what they did....that might be a true punishment.
Yale should demand that the fraternity take action to prevent this harassment in the future, possibly throwing out the offenders. The fraternity should be put on probation, and if this does not completely stop immediately, and I mean, completely stop, the fraternity should be thrown off the campus.
Kyra,
As a member of a national fraternity myself, i CONDEMN these acts! That chapter should be shut down immediately. DKE is condoning a negative environment in their chapter that will eventually propragate into life after college.
Devin
The punishment definitely does not fit the crime. How can a university claim that it cares about its sexual crime rate when it allows this and other events to happen without consequence? The fact that 1 in 4 women are a victim of rape or attempted rape – a severely under reported statistic – bears to keep in mind when thinking about what the consequences should be for these young men.
This is so wrong! I feel these men should be punished and not allowed to be in any groups there at camous, this is saying that it's okay to taunt women and rape them, how would they like it if another man raped them! you can be raped verbally as well and this is wrong, what does this say about the university? So sad
Those students should be expelled. It's not funny and can not be twisted in any way to look acceptable. It's very disappointing to see that Yale is not doing more to put a stop to this.
Its disgusting. But remember most of those pledges are from wealthy influential families and they feel entitled. Sorry to say that they are right.
As a female Ivy League alum, this really disturbs me. The university must send a clear message that they do not tolerate this behavior. Claiming that it's over because the frat has "acceped responsibility" as Mary Miller says above is not sufficient. The frat should be completely disbanded to send a clear message that creating an atmosphere of fear, sexism, and harassment is not allowed at Yale. If they had been threatening blacks or some other racial minority at the campus it would be considered hate speech. Instead because it's women, all they get is a finger shake.
The DKE website states that the fraternity exists for...
"The Cultivation of General Literature and Social Culture, the Advancement and Encouragement of Intellectual Excellence, the Promotion of Honorable Friendship and Useful Citizenship, the Development of a Spirit of Tolerance and Respect for the Rights and Views of Others, the Maintenance of Gentlemanly Dignity, Self-Respect, and Morality in All Circumstances, and the Union of Stout Hearts and Kindred Interests to Secure to Merit its Due Reward."
Since the Yale chapter seems to have a very different agenda, it's charter needs to be revoked.
I was totally shocked when I looked up the unedited version of what was said to these women. I will pray that these women can forgive these little boys prentending to be men!
To all of you children who thought this would be a good idea I want you to know that everyone has access to the internet....including the future CEOs you might want to work for. You did not get accepted to Yale because you could afford to pay....you are supposed to be the smartest of the smart. This no doubt was innapporiate!
The punishment you will recieve will NOT by any means be acceptable. You little boys do not know what those young women have gone through in their lives. Sometimes apologizes are just not enough.
Once again, another example of "free speech" being taken too far – the punishment was not equal to the crime of disgustingly disorderly conduct – hmmm, "disorderly conduct" – isn't there a law?
I grew up in the 50's and could not go to most colleges such as Yale because of being a girl. They shut me out then and are trying to do it to women now. When men get frightened about their manlihood, they take it out on what they consider the "weaker sex". It is the power they want to enhance their egos. The political atmosphere reflects that kind of thinking and bigotry lately. If we are not careful we'll be back where we were in the 50's.
In NO way does the punishment fit the crime. As a female student currently in college, and currently active in the greek system, I think this chapter should be kicked off campus. Rape is no laughing matter and this should not be taken lightly. I have sat up with too many of my friends after some boy thought "no meant yes" and I don't think Yale should push this issue under the rug in order to maintain their image. It's disgusting & they should send a message to this fraternity and anyone else on campus who may think this is no big deal as well. It's sickening to me.
At my age I've lived the change. Money is more important than manners or rules. It's all for one and one for one and that includes Yale. They should have suspended the Frat house and told them continuing this type of behavior would cause dismantling the organization. The women, well... now one can understand why people get shot. Exactly how long can one be expected to live in fear without striking back or snapping. Time to strap on the holster.
These men are the future leaders and businessmen of our country. They are being trained and conditioned to disrespect not only women but men as well. They are being conditioned to disregard what is socially and morally acceptable. What kinds of ethical lives and businesses will they run. I see successful political futures ahead for them all. Now that is disturbing.
Yale is on our son's application list for next year, after seeing cnn report on a fraternity chant, I am requesting my son to remove Yale from his list. I have not raised a sound responsible respectful young man, only to allow him to be influenced by such dis-respect and a abusive use of our "first amendment" Shame on the group of men, shame on Yale for allowing such inmature behavior and shame on the parents for not instilling a better judgement and confidence in their son's ability to not "go" with the crowd!!!!!!
What a disgusting sense of humor. I don't care if they are ivy league students, they need to be held accountable for the disruption and offensive remarks that they are making.
The punishment absolutely does not fit the crime. As a woman I am angered, saddened, and sadly, not surprised. I do however appreciate the fact that this truly highlights the sad truth that rape, and misogyny in general is not only a problem for the middle and lower classes. It's not just gangsters out there promoting rape, and women aren't necessarily "safer" in higher income areas. These men need to not only learn the ugly truth about rape and its prevalence in American society, but they should be forced to go around the country educating other "frat boys", on rape culture and it's effects on our citizens, especially our little girls.
It's apparent that the men who were in charge of that group there has a misogynistic view which they bolstered and shared by many of their numbers on that campus. This is why it so important to ensure that the "leaders" in any "leadership" institution have been mentored properly. Fraternal organizations are beyond a shadow of a doubt mentoring factories. If your focus isn't continually honed...just what kind of men are you making? I think this is the deeper question.
Speech, whether first Amendment protected or not, expresses thoughts, ideas and/or intent. This holds true of this speech as well. Horrific things expressed in fun is no less menacing or disturbing. Surely such things were not taught to these young men and perceived "Yale Gentleman".
I was raised on what was reputed to be the worse housing project in America, Cabrini Green in Chicago. Yet I was taught not to dismiss women in this manner nor to allow such things to pass. It is shameful that a Yale education does not at least provide a survey of the values my Ghetto education provided.
The punishment does not fit the crime, unless Yale, as an institution promotes such sad values to its graduates. If one aspires to hire an Ivy League gentleman, one must consider the other decent Ivy League Schools.
Top news story? This is just a couple guys doing what they are told to do or else will get kicked out of the pledge group. If anything the pledges are being hazed more than the people living around campus. Would this be taken seriously if it were a sorority walking around talking about beating up guys? Oh and this isn't a crime. It seems like these media stories of college students "misbehaving" are only linked to top prestigious schools; i.e. Duke Lax. Just let them complete the pledging.
It is unfortunate that at the heart of this problem is a paying parent of an Ivy League student who the school officials don't want to "offend" or "run off"....as always, it comes down to the money. These "boys" deserve more than a wrist slap and a bunch of talk. I don't usually respond to news stories with comments but when I saw this I could not help but have to say something. Where are we? The middle east? Where women are placed in fear in their own home or as this is a home away from home? It is no wonder that we have such leadership issues when boys are allowed to be boys and not raised to be decent men. Do something with a little more punch people! If not, what principles you supposedly stand for is all irrelevant and secondary to the bank account.
Well, coming from the '60's era at the University of Maryland, let me first say that in those days the term "date rape" was considered an oxymoron. (just kidding.......sort of......). Anyway, regarding the Yalies', their right to free speech only goes so far. This group activity, which apparently was condoned by the DKE members, is innappropriate and demeaning to the young ladies. At the very least, DKE should be placed on probation for the rest of the year. Additionally, reasonable steps should be taken by Yale to cultivate a culture of respect, without resorting to "political correctness."
In my opinion, NO! The punishment does not fit the crime. It seems to me that the fraternity is issuing a challenge to the administration, "Who is in charge?". It's time to draw the line. Consider expulsion of hte fraternity and, the students involved. The administration need to demonstrate a "strong hand" here. One might complain it would be too much of a life changing experience, but also is rape...or the threat thereof.
Your suggestion for punishment is as bad as the crime...
All of those involved in this pledge should AUTOMATICALLY,
1. have their course credit earned at Yale taken away and
2. be relieved of their high school degrees and
3. sent back to 8th grade grammar school for re-education,
4. None, of which, obviously has not taken hold.
5. All of which is announced in the local newspaper, where their parents live.
.
Any organization that shows itself to be this focused on the denigration of any innocent group should be disbanded. Had it been a white group attacking a minority group, it would have happened instantaneously, & rightly so. But the very fact that it hasn't happened in this case shows where these "men" got the idea to do this in the first place.
Jeez – people need to calm down. It must be a boring news day for something like this to be considered "headline news". A bunch of young men sang a stupid, lack of sensitivity song – wow isn't that shocking! Do they do it every night or did they chant it all night long? NO. Was it stupid – Absolutely. But come on – coments like they need to be "re-educated" or "no sex for six months" – how about we cut off their penis.
I read the Dean's post – it seems well thought out and the action
appropriate (please note that the Dean is a women). We have real serious issues to address in the world – drop the cheap dirt and move on.
The punishment in no way fits the crime. These young men, to be able to get into such a university, should have been at least intelligent enough to realize that the heinous chants that they so easily cheer out trivializes the pain and suffering of every rape victim. It shows a complete disregard for womans rights and common human decency. Hardly what you would expect from what should be intelligent men.
What makes this worse is that is their reasoning to doing this: to join a fraternity.
i am appalled, disgusted and angry that: ;..1 This pledge exists, 2.That the Dean of Yale,mentioned the words Free Speech, in her response 3.That these young men were simply asked to suspend there pledge activities......What message are we sending that simply passes this action off as...a mistake....I personally believe all of these men should be required to listen to Fathers whose daughters have been sexually assaulted or raped.
The young men of this fraternity obviously need to learn more lessons than just from classes and textbooks. No group should be allowed to display such disregard for other people and expect to get away with very little or no punishment. These students are not even being punished by the sexual harassment policy on campus.These students need to be educated about hazing, harassment, and general decorum. The lack of punishment for these fraternity members is an insult to women and a slap in the face to any woman that has been a victim of rape. As a victim of rape I don't know how I would respond to hearing such hateful and disgusting speech a few yards from where I lived. If these pledges were spewing racist speech or comments against those of different sexual orientation, you can bet that Yale would be doing a lot more about this. That fraternity would be shut down instantly. Why don't women get the same consideration? Just because you say you are a student of an Ivy league university, does not mean that you are an educated person of thoughtfulness and class. Great people may hail from Yale. Yale did not make them great. Great people make themselves great.
Some notes of advice to parents of young girls about to enter college...
Strongly encourage your daughters to take rape prevention classes. They will need it. Parents of young men may strive to raise good boys but once they enter a fraternity it is like Lord of the Flies. Many of them become animals. Girls need to be better educated about fraternity behaviour.
Tell your daughters to carry pepper spray; to NEVER go anywhere alone and to not drink alcohol to the point where they cannot defend themselves if necessary.
@Jan: ". . .yes means anal. . ." makes you wonder about the sexual preference of these young me.
I see you haven't been around much.
The punishment doesn't fit the crime. How many rape victims were silenced by the too-powerful moms and dads of frat boys? And now these hoodlums are trying to condition all the campus girls for rape! Makes you think of the value system in this cesspool of a school. Sad how this country was founded on the principal of the equality for all and the abolishment of the aristocracy only to have its ugly head rise up again and again. Should rich kids be allowed to practice potentially illegal initiation rituals in secrecy all under the disguise of "academic freedoms"? Can't they just lie in a coffin for a few hours?
A woman is raped every 2 minutes in the u.s. and 150,000 children per year are sold into sex slavery. We have a big problem in the u.s. with rape but we seem to be more obsessed with so called terrorist idiots who burn their shoes, underwear, and vehicles. Rape is more of a terrorist crime than burning your shoe, underwear or vehicle.
While I do not condone the actions of this fraternity, I do know for a fact that many, if not all, frats and sororitys as well have dirty songs, chants, and rituals. Its not nearly as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.
Hmmm, this story goes a long way to explaining Yale's current standing in the "50 Most Dangerous Campuses in the US". The Neanderthalic attitudes displayed by the fraternity and the "Boys will be boys" 1950s permissiveness displayed by the Yale administration is not surprising. It proves, once again, that money talks. If you don't have consequences for bad behavior there will be no changes. Ask anyone who has raised a puppy.
Just goes to show that no matter what school you graduate from, you can not buy class.
Shameful.
Yes, this is the 21st century, but come on let's give it a rest a stop make a huge deal out of whatever we possibly can get our greedy little hands on. Yale is a wonderful school and I am 100% sure that I would send my daughter there even if the chants were still going on. Stick and stones...as ma always said.
The university should require the fraternity leadership to visit a maximum security prison and walk through the halls while prisoners chant the same words that the pledges were made to chant outside the girl's dorm. Perhaps that would raise their consciousness.
Dear Kyra,
This is the reason, "Roe vs. Wade" should never, be over-turned. Theres still exists, in this Country, too much freedom enjoyed by some, at the expense of others and not enough is done about it.
Yours truly?
If my daughter was to get raped because Yale wrist slaps sexually violent threats which are not protected free speech, I'd advise my daughter's counsel to "Yours Truly" them bankrupt.
As the father of three daughters, I am disgusted that this behavior would be tolerated by the University based on protecting freedom of speech. The fraternity should be disbanded and these young men (at the very least) asked how they would respond if those chants were directed at their mothers, sisters or girlfriends!
Someone in the frat came up with the chant. Find him, suspend him (them) for two semesters and put the frat on probation for the year. Send a message. As for the frat pledges who yelled the chant, require community service at a rape crisis center where they are required to observe and experience the aftermath of rape victims. And don't forget to send a letter home to the parents of these fine young ivy league men about their recent activity. Lastly, a full page ad in the community's newspaper listing the members of the frat by name who were involved in hazing the pledges and the young pledges themselves BY NAME to expose these mobs on an individual level. Let them experience the "fun" - maybe others will reconsider the potential exposure for behaving like asses.
Here's my solution; get their names and send a letter or better yet a recording to each one of their mothers. Lets see how that washes at Thanksgiving break!
Staus quo gone wrong. Any questions?
Okay, calm down. Let's not focus on creating major programs and retraining EVERYONE in the fraternity – overkill based on emotional response. Fraternity pledges do lots of humiliating things – this time it was embarassing and outwardly focused, no focused on the individual pledge.
Can Yale limit student demonstrations, suspend the head of the chapter and publish the names of those who were shouting those lines, as well as the instigators? The later'll cut into their dating lives and relationships and make them nationally humiliated.
I decided to check out the news while I had a few minutes at work today. I was so glad I did, I saw the choirs singing the hymn. I was shocked by the choice of song (it's one of my favorites) and that CNN organized it. To the person that organized it, thought of the idea and gave the green light to do it. Thank you.
If I were a donor, I would be yanking any and all contributions to Yale until they closed that Frat down. Otherwise, I would assume that Yale has a serious lack of committment toward the promotion of the success of women within its community. Sounds like the good old boys club is alive and well in Ivy League America.
Lighten up. This is college lifestyle behavior and the more outrageous the better from their point of view. The antiwar protestors of the 70s were chanting illegal traitor type speech, and burning flags while the nation was at war. Being outrageous and rebellious and morally offensive to society with no evil intentions at all is totally harmless college fun and the girls were laughing so hard at the frat boy idiots they didn't bother to complain. As far as the girls in the dorm being unsafe, it;s not the public chanting marching you-tube boys they need to worry about.
How is it that a highly regarded University that boosts about its intellectual alumni can allow an archaic ritual like hazing and all the ignorance that goes along with it to happen on their campuses? Its time to put a stop to these old rituals and concentrate on educating our young. Then maybe the stupidity that that fraternity showed will actually be abolished.
I am a college student and you are all clearly not facing the reality of the situation: we live in a vulgar world and if you are willing to send your daughter or son into it then they are going to hear some pretty graphic and disturbing things. However, take comfort in the fact that schools have heightened security since the days you old folks were in school. Also, schools have taken a proactive stance in this sort of matter in stead of turn the other cheek (similar to how they acted when you were in school). The same things are happening on college campuses now just like then the difference is that now schools are more vigilant and take more disciplinary actions towards the participants of a violation.
I am outraged that this is allowed to happen at Yale and in the Fraternity. Education classes? Dialogue? F that. These men know that what they did was wrong and they need to be expelled and put it jail. This is discrimination at its most vile form. This is absolutely disgusting and hugely inhuman.
This is disgusting! The organized parade and chants through the streets directly in front of the freshman women's dorm is a sexual assault in and of itself. Each and every one of the pledges should be charged with sexual assault. Additionally, the Fraternity should be charged with hazing. At the very least the fraternity should be fined.
While we do enjoy the right to Free Speech, we also have to take personal responsibility for the words we project. Causing someone to fear for their safety is ASSAULT, possibly aggravated due to the aggressive, sexual content.
As such, every participant should be charged with Felony Assault, and labeled a 'Sexual Predator'. The 'Organizers' of the event should ALL be expelled and their credits erased, in addition to the above punishments.
But of course, the families have too much influence, and deep pockets, so you can expect very little in the way of reprimands. Were I to gather a group of men, and pull the same stunt in front of a female dorm, you can bet everything you own, that we would ALL be in lock-up, with multiple injuries and unattainable bails / bonds.
As a female, I am very disturbed by the sheer arrogance of these pledges as well as any other members that would justify or encourage this type of behavior. I find it quite upsetting that after the struggle women, not to mention minorities, have historically endured we still encounter this degree of pompous self-importance from what we would like to be able to assume are educated individuals. However, and as a matter of fact, I happen to know that this type of behavior is still quite prominent within many similar organizations. The only difference is that it more often than not has a tendency to take place behind closed doors. I am from the South and I have witnessed this too many times. It is in no way shocking to me that it was a overwhelmingly white fraternity, despite the fact I also am white. But in reality, the main issue I see is a complete lack of appreciation for the need of true equality among all minorities in our society. Whether this stems from arrogance, ignorance, or both I believe what we should all take from this is a certain amount of awareness regarding these issues. Sadly, they exist to some degree essentially everywhere. These boys are obviously young, stupid, and desperately attempting to fit in which I am sure many of us have some amount of appreciation for. However, if their behavior is not addressed appropriately, it will only be reinforced. (This does not mean I would advocate cutting their penises off or anything regarding no sex for 6 months.) However, if they never truly see the error of their ways it will lead to further reinforcement. To me, I would like to see them enter into a situation in which they truly had to experience/witness how incidents such as date rape or minority oppression really affect those who fall victim to it. Many (I am not saying all) of these pledges are likely overprivileged and white and therefore by nature have absolutely no concept of this. In view of the fact it is quite tempting to want to take the combative approach with situations such as this it will likely be counterproductive to achieving real change. Therefore, if there was a creative approach to educate them in a way they could personalize and relate to it, they might actually have a chance of truly appreciating how inappropriate their behavior was. In the very least I feel an appropriate response for combating this problem would be a mandatory and substantial amount of community service/education/awareness training/etc. regarding specifically these types of issues.
The disrespect these young men show towards women is unacceptable. I wonder how the parents of these fraternity boys feel. I wonder how their mothers and sisters and grandmothers feel. I wonder if they will continue to pay for enrollment.
The notion that these are adults, when the parents (in most cases) are paying for the education and fraternity experience, is just wrong. We the parents are responsible for their behavior, legally and morally. We need to demand more.
I realize that women today present themselves in a negative light. I say this because of the women I see willingly (for fame or money) perform in music videos depicting women as sexual toys. I get that, young women need to step up. The bad behavior of one group does not make bad behavior from another group acceptable. In light of the bullying issues today ~ isn't this another.
I hope that the women of Yale would NEVER CONSIDER dating a boy from this fraternity ~ now that might get their attention. Come on sisters ~ it's time to stand up for each other. The knight in shining armor is not coming.
I would hate to be a young women entering college at this time.
I think I'm more disturbed by the "it's no big deal" attitude displayed by several of the men who are leaving comments. I guess that explains alot. Would it be a big deal if they were screaming anti-semitic slogans? Would it be a big deal if they were praising the joys of lynching in song? JEEZ!!!!! Your tolerence of and rationale that boys-will-be-boys is what allows this behavior to occur. I'm not an uber feminist, just a mom. I fervently hope that attitudes mature by the time my girls are college age.
These are the privileged brutes who will be running our country. The lawless behavior exhibited on Yale's campus could easily be a scene ripped from the pages of 'Lord of the Flies.'
I am a senior at Georgia State University who has long revered your institution, regarding it as one of the zeniths of academia. Needless to say, I was shocked and disgusted by the behavior of Delta Kappa Epsilon on your campus. It baffles me how a prestigious fraternity constructs these sexist ideals, and then gathers the audacity to threaten sexual violence on your youngest female students. Not only is this a mark of a misogynist culture among your students, but also a reflection of the university's atmosphere. The fraternity must have felt protected from consequences to openly attack the women on campus in the name of achieving notoriety. The failure of the Dean to respond adequately has dual consequence: the fraternity's "invincibility" is confirmed, and Yale's cycle of terrorism of female students is urged to continue.
Fear has been injected into the hearts of these young women as a result of these rape-advocating chants. This fear will forever taint their first memories of attending a world-class university, memories that should have been celebratory. Ambition and success should be rewarded, not replaced by shame as your fraternity has cleverly done. I hardly need to remind you that 1 in 6 women are sexually assaulted every year, and college age women are 4 times as likely to be victims. I can only imagine what the statistics are for women who have fallen victim to unified, verbal attacks such as these
Not a bad point Schelli.
DKE is already planning a host of activities and events with the Women's Center. And to all those who are reading, whether you believe it or not, there intentions are genuine. At least most Yale students feel that way
From the 1960s through the 1990s, the most prominent engineering school in the south used these same brainwashing tactics on each new crop of pledges.
Fraternity pledges were also taught how to verbally dehumanize women, and eventually taught how to put their words into action with rape, culminating with the "time-honored" tradition of gang rape.
It was ALL part of the indoctrination into "real" manhood and bonding. Their vow of silence allowed the crimes to perpetuate year after year.
And to think it all started with a simple CHANT, which some of you say is "no big deal". Picture the scene at national headquarters with all the "retired good old boys" in a panic trying to work out "damage control".
Kyra All These Students Who Took Part In This March And That Are Involved In This Fraternity Should Be Expelled From School Plain And Simple! If Yale Is The School They Claim To Be They Would Take Further Action And Not Wait But Take Care Of It Right Now, Expel All Kids Right Now This Is Sick And Inhumane!
Scott Stodden (Freeport,Illinois)
what are our youth coming to , there is a serious lack of respect at a school like yale ....what are they allowing ....and what are they teaching...they really need to be ashamed that they are putting out people especially men that feel it is ok to use language that has absoloutly no "class"
How can smart people be so dumb?
No it is not enough. It is worse because they are SUPPOSED to be the brightest of the brightest and the best of the best. Just really stupid.
gimme a break, like we need any person at yale to tell us what we should or should not be doing
These are the children of the rich....the rich are above the law....nothing will happen. As the father of a daughter, I hope the worse for them, but I am wise enough to know nothing will be done.
Kyra,
If these boys aren't kicked out of the school due to the freedom of speech act, then under the freedom of information act, their names and addresses should be released to those who might be near their homes, their work and anywhere where our young girls might be near these boys. Especially, after dark.
Expell them all now. This is not accepable in our society.
They must be expelled or the sentiment will linger.
Get a life.... this is taking political correctness to an absurd level. Fraternity behavior...please. This is social nonsense. Get back to class and make real social changes. Fraternities and Sorority behavior... what do you expect, are you that naive? This is obviously news filler a total waste of time. Pick some other social topic like homelessness, hunger, race issues.
Kyra mentioned this morning that these men are "frat boys" and are somewhat expected to do stupid things; however, these "frat boys" are young men seeking a college education at one of the most respected university's in the United States. Their standards of behavior should be extremely high. "Frat boys" or not- this is unacceptable.
As a sorority woman its incidences like this that make it difficult to share with 'non-Greeks' the great experiences and opportunities being Greek has to offer the members and communities. It becomes overshadowed by ignorance and embarrassing actions such as this.
I think the woman of Yale should demand action be taken.
While stupidity is never condoned, it's also equally ignorant to lump all fraternities into the same group. It is obvious that the local leadership of DKE is either non-existent or poorly educated in the goals of that organization. A true fraternity fosters the true balance of a man, in spirit, mind, and body. Kyra, please do not assume that "frat boys" aren't the smartest. Many of them care for your families, run your favorite companies, and perform on your favorite shows. The punishment fits the crime. While what they did was idiotic and stupid, the best punishment will come when they put "DKE member" on a resume that also shows a degree from Yale. When an employer sees this and reconsiders hiring that individual, the punishment will occur.
This is a fraternity prank and nothing more. Although look at the ill accused Duke Lacrosse players, the guys are always the bad guys, Young women should never be abused, but need to avoid getting in precarious situations.
Miss Kyra: Regarding Yale, what has happened to respect? Is that word no long in our vocabulary? How sad that fraternities have to resort to loss of respect in their chants. I am surprised that Yale in their staid biography would let this be part of their schools reputation. This concerns students, parents and the administration. The students involved should be expelled. I commend Hannah on her response.
Thank you, Mary
"Today, at least 150 students, largely from the Women's Center and DKE met together, a landmark meeting to begin a dialogue that we hope leads to mutual respect. After a public session, the students met in small groups with dialogue facilitators. Thus begins a long process."
Why does it require such a long process to respond to men who publicly pronounced that they believe in rape? Its as simple as that. Post the faces of the men in the frat so that all women of Yale can see who they are. And then the women need to make sure they don't socialize with these proclaimed rapist-in-training. Its as simple as that.
Delta Kappa across the country will straighten these young men out if Yale can't and pretty upset and embarrassed about it. Class is on the inside and has nothing to do with the money you have or don't. Write a 2000 page essay on what it means to respect others in the world and being considerate. What does it mean to be a gentleman ? Gather all pages as a Delta Kappa Yale member and edit to publish as a book.
You read one reader's response on air this morning that demonstrated the very essence of the attitude that allows these sort of offenses to occur in today's society. He referred to the chant that these young men were repeating as "dirty". This was in my mind, a call to commit a violent, appalling and deviant crime. It is the tolerance of just this sort of behavior that has made the crime of rape so common on our college campuses and in society in general. These are not naughty little boys, these are men with little to no moral compass, no sense of social responsibility and quite possibly some very real criminal tendencies. And clearly Yale finds this of little concern. I'm disgusted and I will definitely not encourage any of my grandchildren to attend Yale.
Bonnie Maloy of Shingletown, California
Its "frats" like this that give fraternities overall, a bad name and image. The young men who took part in this scandalous stunt should be ashamed of themselves. This is a prime example of a fraternity fulfilling the stereotype of being a hazing fraternity. However the guys running this colony at Yale, such a prestigious institute, you would think that they would have a higher sense of pride and maturity. Many fraternities prefer the term "fraternity men" as opposed to "frat boys". The members of the Delta Kappa Epsilon chapter at Yale have clearly chosen what they would like to be viewed as, frat boys.
As a parent with a young daughter who is considering attending Yale, I am very concerned! This is a scary time for young girls the last thing they need to worry about is "chanting" from young men. NO! should always mean NO! My daughter has decided to save herself until she gets married, she would be one to say NO! So what that means YES? I really hope the leaders of this great University step up and put a stop to this unacceptable behavior.
Inappropriate actions what Yale administration is stating; discussion between the young women which were verbally assaulted by this fraternity chant by those pledges. Come on Yale, you do not have any honor or courage take control of your fraternity houses! This is an inappropriate chant on any campus anywhere in the world, so stand up for what is right! By allowing a fraternity house to have these chants "no means yes" you are allowing these men to develop a precursor to sex crimes in their minds. Step back and think about the women that you love in your lives and would you allow them to be treated this way. Also where is the national chapter house and why are they not reprimanding this chapter for their actions?
DKE should be shut down immediately, and the students who participated in this despicable stunt should be suspended.
Of course it is a bunch of Frat boys who threaten the calm of young women on campus. And just give them a few years, they will graduate, move into the Financial Industry and threaten the calm of the world, AGAIN. I say they have a pornographic sense of self-entitlement and had lousy parenting.
With rape being such a scary and active thing going on in our society, being "stupid" is not an excuse for this. These are not boys, these are men attending an ivy league college for an education. Just apologizing for this is not enough, be in those women shoes, hearing this out your window as you try to sleep. This was cruel and mocking of woman's right to say no. These men need to know that this in intolerable and women need the security that the school they're paying so much to attend will do everything in their power to keep them safe.
I don't understand how the business of a private fraternity is any of your concern. The simple act of a chant is not criminal. It is protected free speech and does not fall under any supreme court restrictions. There are no hints of 'imminent lawless action' here, only words. This may offend the sensitivity of some people, but that is what happens when free speech is granted.
Grow up.
The days of males even thinking that when a female says "NO" it really means "YES" needs to be snuffed out now. Hannah Zeavin is to be applaude for bringing this critical issue to the front of male/female interaction.
How can we say that we are so far ahead of other societies when we disrespect each other so much that it is considered alright to utter such disgusting rhetoric.
Thank you Ms. Zeavin for hitting this issue of male entitlement head-on. No one has the right to take dignity from another person.
Ignorance is bliss- so forgive me if I chuckled a little after hearing this story. Is it inappropriate? Of course. Was this disrespectful? Absolutely. But was this even worth the "controversy" or concerns this story is attracting??? I mean, "Come on Shelly!, Come on!"... A bunch of frat boys being dumb and ignorant...so what!!! Just say "shame shame" and move on- Grow up America- there are way more important issues out in this crazy, fragile, delicate world then some random inappropriate chants. I pity those who waste their time and energy on such a novice act- feminists hate me, realists would agree with me.
People who haven't learned how to conduct themselves in ANY public arena should not be afforded the priviedge of staying in college. If any of those students were counting on this parent for tuition I would not need the school to take action. I would be there packing up his room and pulling him out of school. What agreement parent and CHILD comes to would require rebuilding trust.
As far as the university, quit looking at the money and connections with high profile people and begin expelling students for things other than academic failings.
Perhaps we need to go back to re-educating these MEN by putting them back in the first grade where there "may be" enough playground monitors to teach them how to behave with their other playmates.
Any fraternity that demonstrates this type of behavior (verbal assault/threats) toward women also condones the actual (criminal) act of rape. Therefore, this fraternity should be ban/removed by Yale University in order to send a clear message to all. Zero tolerance should be practiced by the school concerning matters as serious as this one.
When i heard this on tv it made me cry. I was raped as a young girl . I think part of their punishment should be to talk to women who have been raped. After hearing their stories maybe the boys would cry.
While I am in complete agreement that what the men of the Delta Kappa Epsilon chapter at Yale have committed an egregious offense that offends our sensibilities and sense of progress, I am in full support of the statement made by “Mike” and aired by CNN on your show. It is in poor taste and extremely offensive to make blanket statements that “frat boys are going to do stupid things” or that they are not “always the most mature of the student body”. These blanket statements only foster the counterculture of fraternal life that we should no longer accept. In turn, this acceptance and perpetuation of the stereotypes only encourages the outrageous acts committed by DKE. Better than half of all US Presidents, five of whom were members of DKE, 17 Vice Presidents and many more esteemed members of our society have been members of the Greek community. Be careful not to paint so many with such a broad brush. These men owe more than just an apology and should be held accountable for their actions, but be careful not to lump so many into such a broad category.
So once again, because this was an offense against women, the university is overlooking it and calling it a matter of free speech ? Why isn't itt sexual harrassment or bullying? If the pledges had shouted racial or sexual orientation slurs, there would have been criminal repercussions. But because it was a crime against women, the pledges are protected by their first amemdment rights? Nowhere does the first amemdment say that you can incite fear on a college campus by promoting rape against women. What about yelling "fire" in a movie theater? This is no different. They were advocating harm to the girls and maybe other groups on that campus. The fact that the school condones it shows how backward thie administration is when it comes to dealing with the rights of the female student population.
If the faculty is going to say this is free speech then the students and community, men and women, should stand-up for themselves and boycott any event that DKE sponsors and they should create a no date list for the members of the frat (i.e. not one attends there parties or their fund raisers). Sororities should refuse to partner with DKE in any endeavor, as well. The boycott should continue until such time as the local chapter of DKE publically apologizes, admits that they were in error and that it was a stupid and insensitive thing to do.
Everyone here needs to let the students at Yale work this out for themselves. That’s what part of being at college is about. What is not reportated is that immediately following the incident, the Yale Women’s Center (normally known for calling for expulsion in these types of situations) invited members of DKE and the Yale community to a forum and dialogue about sexual violence and culture. Rather than focusing on what was chanted, which was clearly said in a stupid, mindless (and yes extremely offensive), they chose to talk about how to move forward (I say this because I saw what happened. I’m a Yale student). And a lot of positive discussions have already taken place. Expulsions and the like would only satisfy a small minority of students here, and alienate the majority who realize that it was just thoughtless frat brothers. The pledges chanted because the brothers told them to, and the brothers chanted because they were told to when they were pledging. There was no “let’s go intimidate women” aspect to it. It is misconstrued this by saying that they were in the vicinity of the women freshman housing. They were, but it is equally male. They chanted there, blindfolded, because it was next to the building where their initiation was taking place. They didn’t go up to women and yell at them. In fact, I saw one girl laughing and fist pumping to “my name is Jack,” apparently thinking it was hilarious. Make of that as you will. But hopefully many of you will realize that none of these guys were condoning rape, even though they were jesting about it…
And I don't mean that the laughing girl "accepts her position as someone who takes this." I meant that she thought it was funny. Even though it really isn't
Kyra.
To learn the other side of the Yale frat guys story you should investigate the Inter-fraternity Council demonstration last year at Drury University (Springfield, MO) last year when all the fraternity men paraded the entire length of the campus in high-heels to proclaim they cared about what its like to be "in a woman's shoes."
Dick McGee
Proud Alum
Class of '56
As somebody who has been suspended from a university based on speech, I would gladly go on TV to debate your guest today. While the actions of this fraternity were inappropriate, I defend their right to do so. Saying that we should suspend people for offensive speech is a slippery slope. Where do we draw the line? Is suspending somebody for peacefully telling people that campus is unsafe a suspendable offense. At the University of Akron it is. That is what happened to me, for peacefully petitioning and speaking out against campus policy. Many campuses have policy against offensive speech, but who defines offensive? The administrators. So if I offend the administrators by sharing views contrary to theirs, then what? Any suspension of free speech is not only unconstitutional, it is dangerous to a healthy republic.
One might expect behavior like this from a teenager, an emerging adult, but a college student? We should expect more from our members of higher education. What kind of initiation chant is that? To me it is a form of harassment, bulling and intimation directed towards women. What is the point of this type of initiation? It is sick. Obviously these DKE members were oblivious to the power of there actions. It will take more than a meeting to guide these men into an understanding of the wrong they committed. Maybe a requirement for a class designed in sensitivity training. Obviously they have a lot to learn.
As the father of a high school senior who has been told by admissions experts that his chances of admission to Yale are slim despite a 4.75 GPA and SAT scores all above 700, I have a simple question:
And these idiots got into Yale HOW?
The university could do us all a service by releasing the high school records and SAT scores of all the students involved. Because from the look of it, there's no way these goons got in on merit.
Are you kidding me. The fact that an argument or discussion on whether this type of behavior is acceptable tells you how far our society has lowered the bell curve on what is acceptable,
responsible and sensible behavior. If you have a mother, sister,
grandmother, aunt, wife, duaghter, girlfriend or any significant female person in your life that you supposedly care about or care for and you are in any way accepting of this, you are the low class side of society.
I can only believe that if anyone, including the Dean at Yale, can use the first amendment to hide behind to make this type of behavior seem just juvenile or a portray it as a "right" then you should be questioned and held in contempt. Are you kidding me, "no means yes, yes means anal" and you defend this. What the hell is wrong with us. Everyone of these students ion that fraternity shoudlbe made to do community service in a rape crisis center, a battered women's shelter, or any other avenue that can be thought of to show these idiots exactly why women would be upset or enraged with this incident. Also, if you are any kind of MAN you should be disgusted.
Ther are asses that get more upset over sports teams being criticized than have gotten upset over this. We worry about a Mosque being built then a gang of supposed educated Ivy league men shouting, no singing, about violence against women. Are you kidding me ?
"Any suspension of free speech is dangerous to a healthy republic."
Yeah! They might even suspend the annual gang rape. Talk about taking all the fun out of frat life ... geez
Do we have freedom of speech in this country, or don't we? I was under the impression that we did. To have that freedom means taking the chance that some person or group will say something that another person or group considers offensive. This does not, should not be, an excuse to abrogate freedom. We may not like what these young men said, but we cannot deny them their right to say it. If Ms. Zeavin found this chant so disturbing, she has equal freedom to lead women students in chanting "no means no". That's what I'd do if I were in her position.
It is a slippery slope, but in ways not related to freedom of speech. Among other things this kind of speech is THREATENING. How safe would your daughters feel if this happened outside their dorm window?
If you allow this kind of activity where does it stop? Will we allow chanting for things like lynchings next? Would that be legal? This is far more sinister then the example given earlier of female students beating males through hazing. There is no systematic pattern of males being oppressed physically, sexually, and psychologically by anyone but themselves.
http://web.mit.edu/stop/www/statistics.htm
The second-to-last paragraph is particularly relevant as it stinks of the same egocentric mentality.
I go to yale you got it all wrong.
Not severe enough. I'd be happy if DKE lost its charter, the organizers were expelled and the pledges were suspended.
Women are loosing more rights when dealing with men on a personal level than ever before. On a personal level, being a student, at work, or on the dating scene women have less status, personal power and respect than they did in the 1990’s.
The slants shouted by Yale fraternity men is a very common view held by men on campus and elsewhere today. For people who went to college 10-20 years ago, having slants like this shouted on campus is nothing in today's modern age where webcams, and online dating reduces women’ importance and value tremendously.
This is yet another example of how our culture continually sanctions misogyny. The slap on the wrist that these young men are getting is very much in keeping with the "boys will be boys" mentality that people often invoke to rationalize such despicable behavior.
One has to wonder if the response from Yale would be the same if these young men were marching around inciting racial violence. Were that the case you can bet the young men responsible would be expelled from school or, at the very least, have their fraternity charter revoked.
Guess misogyny really is the last acceptable prejudice.
As for the video being seen by these students' potential future employers, who do you think is running most of the companies out there?? Something tells me the "old boy network" will prevail and these males will have no problem getting jobs in the future.
What is the administration doing to change the "rape is not only funny, its OK" mentality prevailing at Yale? The university needs a change in culture, where sexual assault directed towards anyone, gay or straight, man or woman, is not acceptable. The Yale University administration appears to be just as un-enlightened as their student body. The "boys-will-be-boys" mentality can be changed at Yale, but only if the administration owns the problem on their campus and is willing to take steps to change it. So far, their actions seem to be indicating that they hope it will all blow over.
That sure doesn't reflect well on their university or their student body.
The offenders should at the very least be suspended from school. To allow this abuse of the female students is absolutely intolerable.
There should be punishment for this lack of respect shown by these individuals to the other students and the University.
If there was a young man with the decency and the courage to refuse to participate in this stunt, I'd like to know his name and shake his hand. I bet there wasn't.
Most people at Yale would consider me a right wing extremist. Fine. Speaking on behalf of the right wing extremist community, I stand with the young ladies and their families. We are horrified that such depravity should exist at a great university. We are outraged that it should be condoned anywhere. And to Dean Miller, your pitiful equivocation is a disgrace to your university, to its founders, its history, and its alumni.
I do not believe in the universal moral bankruptcy of wealth and power. But without a doubt, "morally bankrupt wealth and power" is a lucrative market segment. Evidently Yale intends to lead in that marketplace.
I really think the pledges and Brothers need to go to some sort of sensitivity training as well as a group therapy session where women talk about their rape experiences. Simply suspending all pledging right now isn't good enough. Those pledges had a choice. No matter what anyone says, they had a choice. You don't have to choose to partake in such low-class, pathetic actions. Yes, they were hazed....but you can always walk away. They need to be banned from all future fraternities and the entire chapter needs to be put on probation and be potentially shut down. I'm fairly certain their National Council or whoever is in charge will end up punishing them, but it shouldn't be up to the National Council. It should be up to the school.
Yale's mentality is so messed up. Just because you're rich doesn't mean you're entitled. The administrators need to start sending that message instead of just looking the other way and saying they were only exercising free speech. I'm all for free speech but when you're being ignorant and hateful, there's no reason why you shouldn't be punished. Rape isn't funny and it's not ok. I wonder how many girls have been date raped by this chapter if they think this sort of behavior is ok.